Sunday, July 6, 2008

Give cats & dogs the vote; Walter Knott video

.....Yesterday, I posted about the cluelessness of voters. The evidence clearly suggests that many or even most American voters are sans clue. This seems to be especially true among the so-called "Republican base," a remarkably stupid group.
.....But among our sacred cows as Americans is the notion that voting is good; not voting is bad. Somehow, how one votes—whether, for instance, one is informed or rational—doesn’t matter.
.....This way of thinking is like some kind of New Age philosophy, seems to me. It's about feeling good and ignoring reality.

.....Generally, if there is a way to increase voting rates, people are immediately for it.
.....—Unless, of course, they foresee that their political party will be hurt. Then, all of a sudden, the issue of voter competence, among others, arises. They get all logical.
.....And, of course, if your party sees a benefit, it’ll be especially enthusiastic about the measure. The "competence" argument and every other argument will be rebutted.

16- AND 17-YEAR-OLD VOTERS?

.....In today’s San Francisco Chronicle (State Republicans cool to youth-voting bills), we learn of some (California) Assembly bills “designed to bring more young people into the voting booths”:
.....One of the measures would allow 16- and 17-year-olds to "preregister" to vote, while the other would allow 17-year-olds to vote in a primary election if they will be 18 by the date of the next general election. Both bills have prompted straight party-line votes, with no hint of GOP support.
.....While Democrats sponsoring the bills say they are merely good-government measures, studies show that their party would get a major election-day boost if more young voters cast ballots.
.....Republican Anthony Adams opposes the bills essentially because, he argues, when you’re young, you’re clueless:
....."I'm a pretty conservative guy now, but when I was 17 I was a raging liberal," Adams said. "You start to see problems as you get older. As you get older, you get wiser."

....."Our concern is that we want an informed and worldly electorate, and here we have these kids in high school and they're trying to get a grasp of the world," Adams said. "The assumption is that they're not able to make informed decisions, so we have to have a legitimate cutoff" date.
.....Naturally, California Democrats, including Assemblyman Gene Mullin, see the matter differently. Young people are often more informed, he says:
....."These young people are in school and hearing discussions of issues in their classes," he said. "Republicans are afraid we're going to register a lot of Democrats, but most teenagers tend to register in the party of their parents."

.....The Democratic bills would not give a boost to Republicans, Democrats or any other group, said Assemblyman Curren Price Jr., D-Inglewood…"This is a step we can take to encourage voting involvement at an early age," he said. "People who get involved at a young age are more likely to become regular voters."

.....Price described his bill as "a way of tapping into the interest young people have expressed this year," while not mentioning that much of that excitement was bolstering Democratic campaign efforts….
REVIEWING THE LOGIC:

.....Let’s review some of the above reasoning, shall we?

.....Republican Adams opposes the new measures because (1) when one is young, one is unwise; wisdom is acquired only much later in life, and voters should be wise; (2) when one is young, one is liable to be attracted to liberalism.
.....But if Adams’ first point were correct, then shouldn’t Adams be advocating, not just preventing 17-year-old voting, but raising the voting age substantially? Obviously. How come he isn’t doing that? Make sense, man.
.....During the Democratic primary, we kept hearing that, the older the voter, the more likely he/she supported Clinton over Obama. Surely (I say half-jokingly), this refutes Adams’ point about wisdom and age!
.....That the young are attracted to liberalism, if true, is irrelevant, of course, unless it can be established that liberalism is “wrong” and non-liberalism is “right.” Tsk, tsk.

.....Democrat Mullin counters the Republican arguments and position by arguing that (1) young people are often more informed that their elders; (2) no, the new voters will not be especially Democratic, since teenagers tend to register in the party of their parents.
.....Mullin is full of shit. The notion that young people are especially informed flies in the face of the facts provided by endless polls. That teenagers tend to register in the party of their parents does not counter the Republican worry (that there will be more Dems than Repubs registering), since, obviously there are more Dems than Repubs among existing parent/voters. C’mon.
.....(Of course, the Republican "worry" isn't an argument. We cannot reject a measure that increases voting rates on the grounds that we dislike how the new voters vote!)

.....Mr. Price argues, apparently, that the measures are good because they will increase voting rates in the long run. But, of course, this assumes that increasing voting rates per se is a good thing. There's that sacred cow again. I may be a vegetarian, but that's one cow that oughta be slaughtered.
.....Further, Price's point ignores the “competence” point that seems to be at the heart of the Republican position. (Maybe Price deals with it elsewhere. Dunno.)

.....My own view is that the Republicans have a point: much evidence indicates that young voters are especially clueless. But since the vast majority of voters—especially Republican voters—are already profoundly clueless and vulnerable to various irrationalities (e.g., pursuing incompatible measures), we're just squabbling about how to arrange the deck chairs on this electoral Titanic.
.....So, in my opinion, we should give dogs and cats the vote. No age limit.

WALTER KNOTT ON VIDEO:

.....I happened across a brief video—looks like it was produced in the early or mid-60s—promoting Knott’s Berry Farm, the amusement park, and the politics of its creator, Walter Knott. It starts with a few seconds of typical right-wingery from Walter that will be of interest to local history buffs. (Go to O.C. History Roundup.)
.....Knott, who died in 1982 (at age 93), was an important figure in the development of Orange County as a “bastion of conservatism.” He was an important early supporter of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan.
.....He was also a John Bircher. Scary dude.

GEORGE CARLIN CONTRA THE PUBLIC; CONTRA VOTING

20 comments:

Jonathan K. Cohen said...

It's difficult enough for the average voter to get sufficient information to vote intelligently on any but top-of-the-ticket races and hot-button issues. Giving the vote to kids with limited reading and research skills would bring us closer than I would like to what Lincoln, in his early letters, called "mobocracy."

In theory, it's places like IVC which are supposed to give young people the critical skills they need to become good citizens and voters; heaven knows that in No Child Left Behind land, high school civics has gone by the boards.

torabora said...

Remarkably stupid????

The "stupidest" President in history beat TWO of the Demoncats "best and brightest" and you blame it on "stupid" voters?

How about blaming it on an inept "can't get 'er done" Democratic party leadership? mmmm?

The left couldn't sell shovels to ditch diggers!

Chunk you are showing signs of post traumatic stress syndrome
BEFORE McAmnesty beats BO! At least the Dems are reaching down the bench quite a ways this time. Snark! [Hint...Prozac works wonders (product placement paid for by Pfizer)].

Bohrstein said...

The argument that "kids typically vote the same as their parents" is a blatant contradiction to the "kids are generally more informed." Why would they even say that? If kids vote the way their parents do, and their parents are uninformed, then guess what?! The KIDS are probably uninformed too!

Also, the idea that age = wisdom - pft! I can't wait until I'm an old fart so I can slap my aged peers up and down the roads when they make those arguments. As of right now I'm too young to even get in the face of the conserves that need to be told "right-straight."

Anyways, Chunk - I'm curious, how do you feel about the idea of the "philosophical king," or that the educated should only have the right to vote, or heck, even just an aptitude test on reasoning?

Anonymous said...

All of this seems to presuppose a previous Golden Age when intelligent American voters consistently made wise choices.

I'm always suspicious about good-old-days arguments (especially when teachers--who ought to know better--go on and on about what today's students don't know or can't do).

So exactly when was this Golden Age?

--100 miles down the road

Anonymous said...

No worries, mates. Obama will save us from the stupid masses. Vote Obama! Vote Obama!

Am I spelling his name right????????????????

torabora said...

100 Miles Down The Road (100 MDTR)

You get it!

Thank you very much.

7PM on the nose: spell it BO.

Third party anyone ?: How about the "Rational Party"? Chunk? Rebel Girl?
(Red Emma's probably not gonna play...the chaos is too delicious).

[beer #4 har har]

torabora said...

Chunk....this across the transom today:

550 metric tonnes of YELLOWCAKE went to Canada from IRAQ.

Of course this has absolutely nothing to do with that lying POS Joe 'effin Wilson and her equally culpable (and CIA SPOOK wife!!!!) Valerie Plame (as if that were their names ever!!!!). There is no way in hell any of that had any origin with that African country! Fiction, pure fiction!

To Torabora's detractors some posts ago...neener neeener!

This was a heist, pure and simple...just like that 270 million bucks lifted from a Baghdad bank a few months ago. Oh and let's not forget all those billions in gold bars! And cash.

What's really bothering me is why is anything being said about this at all?

I'm really jealous.

Roy Bauer said...

TB, version 3.22:

I say that the Republican base are remarkably stupid because research indicates that that is true. To respond to this, you need to either (1) provide reasons to doubt the validity of this research or (2) show that equally valid research reaches different conclusions. Neither approach will work since the polls to which I am referring (e.g., U of Maryland) are done by highly reputable organizations and polls of equal validity reaching very different conclusions do not exist.

TB, none of your points are in the slightest bit relevant to the "remarkably stupid" claim.

Roy Bauer said...

Bohrstein:

There are forms of silliness that young people are much more prone to than are older people. On the other hand, as one ages, not only does one become wiser; one also settles into prejudices and habits that seem to prevent the application of common sense--a process that has not yet ruined the young.

It is hard to produce and maintain an elite class that can be trusted, if it can be done at all. So I guess I would advise sticking with democracy and training citizens to be good thinkers.

But there's a problem, and it concerns how one conceives "education." On the one side, there are those who essentially seek a kind of indoctrination--the production of "productive" workers and respectful citizen-children. (Rush Limbaugh and the Republican Party exemplifies this view.) On the other side (sadly), you have a fragmented "educated" class that cannot agree on the nature of good thinking (this derives in part from the rise of specialization in academia).

Worse, you have the class of educationists who, it appears, are on the same level, rationalitywise, as homeopaths and astrologers. (These are who Democrats seem to listen to.) If we leave the reform of education to them (arguably, that is what we've been doing), things will get far worse than they already are.

To recap: you've got your Neanderthals, your fragmented academics and your pinheaded Educationists. Good fuckin' grief.

So I guess I'm pessimistic about the politics of the situation.

My view is very much an "Enlightenment" view, I suppose. We should, at long last, embrace reason. Ain't gonna happen real soon.

Roy Bauer said...

100 Miles:

What we have here is an empirical question. That is, it is a question of fact, not a question of value or philosophy. Get out of your armchair, my friend.

Now either voters are very clueless or they aren't. The specialists who have made it their business to determine the facts--using the available empirical methods-- have arrived at the same picture: we are clueless. Stunningly so.

Further, there is every indication that we are more clueless today than we were 30 years ago. (Note that the trend downward isn't that important to me. What is important to me is that we are very clueless. It is because we are clueless--many Americans still think that Saddam H had something to do with 9-11!--that G.W. Bush was reelected, despite his being a manifestly disastrous President.)

You are committing a gross fallacy, for you are caricaturing the position that you reject. Nobody is talking about some Golden Age of voter intelligence. There never was such an age.

We are, however, talking about a Dark Age, though it could get darker. I routinely ask my students if they know who their Congressperson is. I've been doing this for years. At most, 1 or 2 students per class thinks they know the answer. And their answer is almost always wrong.

That wasn't true 30 years ago. And in saying that, I'm not saying that, 30 years ago, everybody knew who their Congressperson was.

Roy Bauer said...

TB, version 8.3:

What on earth are you talking about?

OK, a new DtB rule: anyone who writes "neener neener" in a comment will get said comment deleted.

Roy Bauer said...

Before anyone else gets excited about this AP "yellowcake" story:

I did some poking around. Turns out that this yellowcake, which is of too low a grade to be used for the nefarious purposes that TB and other hysterics have in mind, was already being monitored by the UN before the invasion. It was in Iraq legally. That the yellowcake was sitting in Iraq has been known all along.

This is a non-story.

Go to
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/07/06/yellowcake-uranium-found-in-iraq-bush-was-right-well-not-so-much/

Roy Bauer said...

Jonathan, many educators do see themselves as training young minds to be good citizens, good voters. WE try to do a good job.

But we're trying to keep 'em clean in a shit-storm. I sometimes get the impression that radio bullies like O'Reilly and Hannity are more influential, as models of "discourse," than college instructors. On this blog, for instance, one routinely encounters comments that amount to braying and assaulting.

Often, when I offer arguments, many readers ignore them and simply attack my conclusion. What kind of education did these people receive?

A few years ago, some friends of mine were involved in the administering of tests, such as the SAT, the GRE, etc. There were tests that, for some reason, were taken only by High School teachers, as i recall.

My friends always told me: by far the stupidest group they had to deal with was the High School teachers. You shoulda heard their stories, man.

Everything hinges on improving education. But it is a political football, and you know what that means.

Anonymous said...

Carlin is on target, yes, but ther is a difference between someone like Bush and almost anyone else in the arena; so, I don't believe not voting is all that supportable when the choice is clear between a lying, corrupt, and unbelievably stupid bastard and almost anyone else.

Roy Bauer said...

I do wish Carlin hadn't discouraged voting. Voting is, in a sense, an irrational act, but I think good people should be willing to make the sacrifice.

Paradoxical? Maybe so. But at least such advice can do no harm.

Bohrstein said...

If you think about it, it could be that the lack of voting, and the lack of passion for the government, has set the stage for those with different ideas. Enter Obama - this guy is all the fuckin' rage. Voting is cool again.

torabora said...

"But at least such advice can do no harm"... C.W.

Oopsie

And by about 500 votes we all get Bushco and Chunk gets heart attack material for years.

BTW what about "Annenberg Political Fact Checker"? Does pass the Chunkster sieve? Just askin'...

Roy Bauer said...

When I said that such advice can do no harm, I was referring, of course, to my own advice to vote.

New Dissent rule: all comments containing "oopsie" shall be deleted.

torabora said...

Now that you have two rules, are there any more that we should know about?

Perhaps a sidebar of DtB rules of posting is in order.

If you keep making rules at this rate there's gonna be hundreds of them. Sheesh!

Anonymous said...

Thanks Chunk for posting this. I've been a major George Carlin fan for years. Loved his schtick on "Seven Little Word," and "A Place for My Stuff," etc. May the man rest in peace.:-)

Roy's obituary in LA Times and Register: "we were lucky to have you while we did"

  This ran in the Sunday December 24, 2023 edition of the Los Angeles Times and the Orange County Register : July 14, 1955 - November 20, 2...