Tuesday, April 12, 2011

OC Register readers offer these comments...


     4/12/11
     I’m not sure what to say, now that I’ve read comments left by OC Register readers to this afternoon’s story about the settlement of “Westphal v. Wagner,” the lawsuit challenging prayers at the South Orange County Community College District.
     Read ‘em yourself. Be amazed.

BOBOOROZCO
   We must worship Jesus continuously 24/7 lest HE, with HIS love for us, send us to hel. This includes worshiping HIM in all public tax-supported institutions also. Non-Christian members of the public need to shut up and love their freedom to worhsip Jesus also, even if they're not Christian, and continue to pay taxes to support the Christian-American government.
   Amen

CASECLOSED
   Let us all pray for everyone that was involved with this lawsuit settlement.

OCSLEEPERLIVES
   And what exactly is wrong with having a moment of silence as compared to having a prayer said over the intercom? Why can't it be good enough for each individual to sit there in a moment of silence to reflect their thoughts or silently say a prayer to themselves? Why must you need to yell it out loud to say hey look i'm praying?
   A good buddy of mine is a devout Christian. We fly on family vacation together. Each time before a flight, he sits there and silently say a prayer to himself. He doesn't need to Flight Attendant to go on intercomm to lead a prayer session so everyone can hear. Why can't most of you be like that when it comes to your religion?

REGENT
   Dan Wagner [sic] is a HERO. That's why I voted for him in the primary and the general election.
   The wimpering cowards who would use litigation to deny others the ability to honor the Creator of the universe, are indeed pitiable.

OCSURVIVOR
   A slide show during a faculty training session for a public college:..images were superimposed with the message, "Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you. Jesus Christ and the American G.I. ... One died for your soul, the other died for your freedom."
   ----I think I would have had to walk out to go throw up.

REGENT
   I will continue to pray and speak boldly about the GOOD NEWS of the Lord God, His Son and our Savior the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
   Jesus offers the one path to salvation. Nothing on this Earth compares.
   Pass your puny laws. You CANNOT stifle the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.

REGENT
   Ignore Jesus Christ at your peril. You may meet Him someday.

45YROCNATIVE
   Tim, that surprises me that you said that... It affects all of us. This is just the beginning, pretty soon we won't be able to pray in church!

LOUFCA
   This is in reply to a blatant lie by OC4Ever. To quote, "According to FBI statistics, there was more violence in society and schools in the late 1800s and early 1900s when school prayer was in full force and religion was unabashedly all over society."
   The FBI wasn't formed until 1908. Don't believe every thing that is posted.


LOUFCA
   Ah, the tyranny of the few and politically correct continue to denude us of symbols that have always meant something to this country.
   I wonder if those who brought the suit and the ACLU have ever looked at the doors to the Supreme Court, Senate and other areas. If they did, they would find things like the 10 commandments. Hmmmm, better burn down the doors to the Supreme Court before an ACLU member is turned into a rock by its look.
   Typcial college professors. Nothing better to do than try and screw up 18 and 19 year olds. I hope they don't have tenure.

GREATG
   Perhaps more discretion in who is hired as a "Professor"
   What are they professor of?

TIMSCAVO
   OK, so prayers are being discontinued at the local colleges.
   So what?
   Doesn't affect me, and it shouldn't affect anybody.

SILVERFOX54
   If you want to have prayers from the Quran being invoked every day, I suggest that you find another country to live in. I am 57 years old, born and raised in the USA, as were my parents and there parents and ther parents. Bet you can't say that. While growing up in this country, not once was the question of one's religion brought up when prayers were said in school. We were proud to be AMERICANS and proud of what this country stands for and equally proud of any type of prayer that was read aloud during a graduation ceremony. We did not question it as to it's meaning towards people that might not have the same faith. The funny thing about the country you obviously came from, is that if someone from the USA was there and bitched about the reading of the Quran in schools, would anyone listen ? I think not !!!!! They would most likely be found dead. Come to America to be American. Don't come to America and expect America to change for you. No like AMERICA........go home and read Quran

ABBEYA
   THis is America... Settled by Puritians...ie: Christians ...Founding Fathers Christians....% of Americans who ARE Christians 76% accordingly to Wikipedia. As for the Koran...IF Muslims had settled here ...NO one would tell them, sue them, call the ACLU on them. They would just Cut-off the discussion if you understand my meaning.

GREYLOX
   **Would all of you people who are so determined to have Christian prayers said at all school events have the same opinion about prayer in schools if it was prayers from the Quran being invoked on a daily basis? Be honest.

ALANRRT
   If there is no God to answer prayer, then prayer is just empty words. So the fact that atheists get so worked up just hearing someone pray tells me that even they can't buy thier own rhetoric.

NEWPORTBOB
   The prayer, I pray that I pass this darn test, should never be omitted from college campuses.

BADMONKEY411
   Religion Kills!

THOM234
   GOUSCOC....I don't get what you said. I only see one Jewish sounding name in the plaintiff group.

XPATRIOT
   And we just keep moving further away from any type of fundamentals in school. I find it humorous that folks keep nagging about the separation of church and state, but yet " in God we trust" can not only be found on our money, it is also above the speaker of the houses seat in the capitol in two foot letters. Sure keep thinking there is no correlation between the lack of fundamental teaching in our schools and the current state of our education in America, kids today are simply not learning any type of discipline. The lack of morals and respect continues to decline in our schools and America only produces more and more corrupt and selfish citizens. Do kids in school even recite the pledge of allegiance anymore? I am sure it violates someones right not to be Amrican in America.

OC4EVER
   Gatordon: While I am a person of faith, your statement is historically inaccurate. According to FBI statistics, there was more violence in society and schools in the late 1800s and early 1900s when school prayer was in full force and religion was unabashedly all over society--not that it was caused by the prayer, but we were simply a more violent society back then--things were settled with guns, and the court system was not as fully developed. So it is not true that prayer in schools means no or less violence.

DOGSTAR
   Maybe one of the draft dodgers that pose as editor for the OCR had a had in this. How about in Whiting?

BLACKJESUZ
   wasnt God there when little children were being molested by men of the cloth?
   or when the white man massacred millions in the name of christ?
   what retarded nonsense to preach Gatordon.
   kick out religion from all of our institutions so we can go back to a sane society.



GOUSCOC
   The federal lawsuit, Westphal v. Wagner, was filed in November 2009 by Americans United for Separation of Church and State on behalf of Saddleback College professors Karla Westphal, Alannah Rosenberg, Margot Lovett and Claire Cesaero-Silva, Irvine Valley College professor Roy Bauer, Saddleback College graduate Ashley Mockett and two anonymous Saddleback College students.
   Looks like Christians have more to worry about being attacked by jews then muslims.

GATORDON
   And then when there are killings in our schools, Parents and people ask why wasn't God there to protect our children? Very simple... You kicked him out.

RIXTAR99
   ...and where in what constitution does it say "separation of church and state"? [The 1st Amendment prohibits laws respecting establishment of religion.]

ISTHATHER
   Interesting...

NAPTOWN
   ...and the tail wags the dog

More on the "Westphal v. Wagner" (prayer lawsuit) settlement

Don Wagner: dramatization of his unconstitutional scholarship rant
Plaintiffs'
Ayesha N. Khan
Colleges agree to discontinue some prayers (OC Register)

MISSION VIEJO – Saddleback and Irvine Valley Colleges have agreed to discontinue the use of invocations at scholarship ceremonies and faculty training sessions like the Chancellor's Opening Ceremony as part of a lawsuit settlement with a group seeking to prohibit prayers at college events.
     According to the settlement, the colleges may continue to hold a nonsectarian prayer or moment of silence during graduation ceremonies if the event's planning committee chooses to do so.
     The federal lawsuit, Westphal v. Wagner, was filed in November 2009 by Americans United for Separation of Church and State on behalf of Saddleback College professors Karla Westphal, Alannah Rosenberg, Margot Lovett and Claire Cesaero-Silva, Irvine Valley College professor Roy Bauer, Saddleback College graduate Ashley Mockett and two anonymous Saddleback College students.
     The lawsuit named as defendants the district's trustees, former South Orange County Community College District Chancellor Raghu Mathur and Saddleback President Tod A. Burnett.
     Lawyers for both sides said they were pleased with the settlement.
     "Our hope was to have all of the prayers discontinued, but we recognized that we stood on stronger legal ground with respect to some events than other events," said Ayesha Khan, the plaintiffs' attorney.
     "I think this was a fair compromise."
     Legal counsel for the defendants said the district got "exactly what it wanted."
     "The main goal in the litigation from the defense side was to preserve the ability of the district to have invocations at college graduations. This settlement does exactly that," said attorney John Vogt from Jones Day.
Mathur: showed a patriotic slide
show with a "Jesus saves" message
     Americans United challenged the use of prayer and other religious content at all college-sponsored events, claiming it is a violation of the First Amendment rights of those in attendance. The plaintiffs named several instances where they thought religious content was inappropriately used at college events.
     In February, U.S. District Court Judge R. Gary Klausner determined that nonsectarian invocations at events like graduation and scholarship ceremonies do not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, which enforces the separation of church and state. The judge denied the plaintiffs' request to prohibit invocations because they could not show irreparable damage would result from continuation of the tradition.
     However, Klausner also determined two incidents named by the plaintiffs – one involving Mathur and another involving former SOCCCD trustee Donald Wagner – did violate the Establishment Clause.
     The incident related to Mathur occurred during the Chancellor's Opening Session in August 2009. A slide show of patriotic images set to "God Bless the USA" was played during a faculty training session, ending with two slides picturing flag-draped coffins of U.S. soldiers.
     According to the court order, the images were superimposed with the message, "Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you. Jesus Christ and the American G.I. ... One died for your soul, the other died for your freedom."
Defendants'
John A. Vogt Jr.
     The slide show had been approved by Mathur. The defendants contended Mathur had only seen the first few slides before approving the presentation.
     The incident related to Wagner occurred at a May 2009 scholarship ceremony, which Wagner opened with an invocation.
     In the invocation, Wagner mocked "the special interest group that has contacted this college to pursue its agenda of driving God from public square" by calling out the group's efforts and reminding the audience that "America's founders invoked the name of God, and encouraged and participated in religious ceremonies in government facilities."
     Both parties were required to meet for a settlement conference after Klausner issued the order in February. Vogt said the settlement was reached on March 31, eliminating the need for Klausner to issue a final judgment in the case. Before the settlement agreement, Khan had previously said the plaintiffs had planned to appeal to the state Supreme Court the portion of Klausner's ruling against them.
     Though a settlement has been reached, Vogt pointed out a potential loophole.
     Language in the settlement prohibits the colleges from holding invocations at scholarship ceremonies, but it's possible for the tradition to continue if the colleges' foundations – private, nonprofit entities who were not party to the lawsuit – resumed planning the events, Vogt said, since "nothing in the settlement would preclude the foundations." Vogt said the foundations historically planned the ceremonies until 2008.
     Khan disagreed with Vogt's interpretation of the settlement agreement.
     "Neither the South Orange County Community College District, nor its colleges ... shall include an invocation on the program at any future scholarship ceremonies," Khan said, reading from the agreement. "I think they'd be skating on really thin legal ice."

     In a recent post, DtB calculated the amount of money the district has paid Jones Day thus far. See A point of information.
     The amount: $1,041,150.00
     In the settlement, the district agrees to pay Americans United for Separation of Church and State $250,000 (plaintiffs’ attorney fees). (See.)

Judge Klausner: actually, Don, we need a bit less than you're providing

Roy's obituary in LA Times and Register: "we were lucky to have you while we did"

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