The SOUTH ORANGE COUNTY COMMUNITY COLLEGE DISTRICT —
"[The] blog he developed was something that made the district better." - Tim Jemal, SOCCCD BoT President, 7/24/23
The article covers mostly familiar ground, but it does explain some of the history leading up to the lawsuit:
[Plaintiff Karla] Westphal, who has been a professor at Saddleback College since 2001, said the frequency of public prayers at school events began in 2004 when a trustee led a prayer at the beginning of a scholarship ceremony.
Westphal wrote to trustees expressing her opposition to the public prayer.
A week later a prayer was said at the opening of commencement. She said she was so angry she can't remember what was said. … It was in that year that Westphal got in touch with Americans United [For Separation of Church and State] and the American Civil Liberties Union.
"When the prayers initially started I hoped to get it settled without a lawsuit and that just didn't happen," Westphal said. "The suit is a culmination of a long process. I've been working with Americans United for a long time. They wrote letters to the board formally asking for the change. For me there wasn't any particular event. I've been ready for several years. It was a question of whether Americans United felt it was a good time to bring the case forward."
The text of the lawsuit answers many of your questions.
The suit includes numerous fascinating factoids. E.g., section 63 states:
But in an e-mail exchange with the chancellor and other trustees, Trustee Williams offered to deliver the invocation at that next Opening Session. Wagner responded: “As for the invocation, John, give ‘em hell!” Williams’ rejoinder was to explain that he was searching the internet for a prayer that would be yet more provocative and “liven things up a bit.” The chancellor responded: “Great! Thank you.”
Section 81 is also interesting:
At the August 2009 Chancellor’s Opening Session, the Board and the chancellor continued to stir the pot, injecting even more state-sponsored religion into the event. Trustee Wagner invited the assembled faculty and staff to stand for an invocation “[i]n recognition of this country’s rich religious heritage.” Trustee Williams then offered this extended prologue:
Before the invocation, I thought I’d tell a little Biblical story. Today’s story is about Jonah. In grade school one day, a little girl spoke to her teacher about Jonah and how he was swallowed by a whale. The teacher said it was physically impossible for a whale to swallow a human because even though they’re a large mammal they have very small throats. The little girl said, “But how can that be? Jonah was swallowed by a whale, and the Bible says so.” Again the teacher said it’s physically impossible for a whale to swallow a human. Undaunted, the little girl said, “When I get to heaven, I will ask Jonah.” To this the teacher replied, “What if Jonah has gone to hell?” The little girl replied, “Then you can ask him.” Please join me in the invocation now.
The prayer followed.
Recent media appearances by AUSCS Exec. Director Barry Lynn
COMMENTS:
Anonymous said...
I recommend perusing the lawsuit - it makes for an excellent Sunday reading. Thanks for doing this. It needs to be done. 12:57 PM
Anonymous said...
Damn, what a bunch of assholes. Give 'em hell! 2:58 PM
Anonymous said...
"It is very dangerous to protect separation of church and state . . . ." HUH? 5:28 PM
Anonymous said...
send all demonic candy to me at . . . 5:37 PM
Anonymous said...
It look like the District is just extending the Bush "No children left behind" doctrine to "No Republican lawyers left behind". Some pigs *are* more equal at the trough of public money. 10:16 PM, November 22, 2009
Anonymous said...
The smug arrogant disdain displayed by the trustees is awful. 8:31 AM, November 23
Anonymous said...
At Saddleback, students who receive scholarships are told that those monies may be forfeited if they don't attend the ceremony (where they will be prayed over by the likes of Fuentes and Wagner). I am curious whether IVC students receive the same message (threat) - anyone with info about this?
9:11 AM
Anonymous said...
I read the lawsuit - it's worse than I thought. I hope you prevail.
10:25 AM
Anonymous said...
Faculty should think about this next time they drink friendly beers with Don Wagner at Tijuana's - he's not what he appears to be. Read through the lawsuit. Watch the videos Roy posted. See what we're up against. It's ugly and hateful.
11:33 AM,
Anonymous said...
Who goes out for drinks with DON WAGNER?
12:56 PM
Anonymous said...
Who could go out with Don Wagner and NOT drink?
2:01 PM
Anonymous said...
I'll drink to that.
2:16 PM
Anonymous said...
I just think the people who pal around with him should know about the forces Wagner has aligned himself with - they're a pretty bad bunch. He's not a nice guy, not even close. He's using everyone he can to get what he wants.
2:19 PM
Anonymous said...
Those people who toss back friendly pitchers with Don should sober up and see through his rather transparent motivations - HE IS USING YOU PEOPLE. HE IS MAKING YOU THINK HE IS REASONABLE AND ON YOUR SIDE - AND HE IS NOT. THE ONLY SIDE DON IS ON IS HIS OWN. ARE YOU THAT CHEAP?
7:49 PM
There may be some confusion concerning the status of the defendants in the “prayer” lawsuit (“Westphal v. Wagner”). As you know, several people, including each of the SOCCCD trustees, have been named as defendants in that suit.
But they are not all being sued in the same way.
Dual capacities:
DONALD P. WAGNER is being sued individually and in his official capacity as a member and the president of the South Orange County Community College District Board of Trustees.
JOHN S. WILLIAMS is being sued individually and in his official capacity as a member and the vice president of the South Orange County Community College District Board of Trustees.
THOMAS A. FUENTES is being sued individually and in his official capacity as a member and the clerk of the South Orange County Community College District Board of Trustees.
RAGHU P. MATHUR is being sued individually and in his official capacity as chancellor of the South Orange County Community College District.
TOD A. BURNETT is being sued individually and in his official capacity as president of Saddleback College.
Only in their official capacity:
On the other hand,
DAVID B. LANG, WILLIAM O. JAY, NANCY M. PADBERG, and MARCIA MILCHIKER are only being sued in their official capacities as members of the South Orange County Community College District Board of Trustees.
COMMENTS:
Anonymous said...
I'm glad you're doing this but am curious as to why IVC is not mentioned in the lawsuit and why Glenn isn't a defendant. 10:17 AM, November 22, 2009
B. von Traven said...
I won't go into details, but these suits are somewhat complex, since there are significant distinctions between venues of prayer, kinds of prayer, and actions of officials, etc. There are also differing objections to these episodes. I will see about providing a link to the complaint so that readers can learn the relevant facts. 10:36 AM, November 22, 2009
Anonymous said...
IVC needs relief from this kind of forced worship too! I go to work here - not pray here! 10:45 AM, November 22, 2009
How do you feel about a phrase like, "It is what it is..."?
I responded as follows:
Excellent question. ... [T]he expression does seem to express something of significance. I say this because there are times when I am attracted to the phrase—I mean, I want to (or do) say it. But then I wonder what I'm saying or trying to say. (How odd that one can say something and not know what one meant….)
I guess I've got to have concrete instances of its usage…. Got any? What do you make of it?
Mr. B soon responded:
...[T]he phrase frustrates me ... because it is often used as an argumentative tactic against me. "Why explain something?" they seem to ask. "It is what it is." Though, as you indicate it may have some significance. It's just that these individuals I speak of often say it so casually turning something potentially sublime into a fuckin' handshake.
So what could it mean? I think I have said it, referring to the context of some thing. I find that common, everyday language lacks rules (or words, or symbols, or whatever) to discuss contexts as symbols of their own so we are reduced to these seemingly vague situations of describing "it" by that physical existence that "it" is.
For example, "a tree is a tree" is vague sounding, unless I take you outside and say "a tree is (I then point at a tree) a tree," then that whole human experience thing, plus my words, aid in your understanding of what a tree is.
I could be wrong, but I am just chattin' right now, so forgive me if I sound like a total tool.
[At this point, I sense a yawning generational gap. “Chattin’”? A “tool”? Wow, B is grody to the max! He continues:]
So, perhaps you have stood at the beach on a pleasantly chilled clear dawn, maybe not viewing the sun, but gazing across the vast sea, feeling a tickling of excitement in your body that you get to experience something so grand, and "What is that?" you might ask. It is what it is.
[Something wonderful yet indescribable! "Do not sully it with your analyses!"]
I guess in this little fit I am throwing, I think that only people who get that should be allowed to say the phrase. [Most of the time, uttering “it is what it is” provides] a sort of safe haven for people who have no fucking clue as to what they are talking about—to sound wise, or knowledgeable or something.
Get what I am saying?
Avalon, Santa Catalina Island, 1930
Two days later, utterly ignoring B’s profounder suggestions, I replied [actually, I am hereby replying to him]:
B, I was watching some stupid TV show, and I saw a guy look up at a big amusement ride and say, “Once it’s built, it is what it is.”
OK, so, here, “it is what it is” (IIWII) seems to mean, “You may want to change this, but there’s no changing it now. Deal with it.”
It then occurred to me to consult the Urban Dictionary.
The first UD contributor asserted that IIWII means “fuck it,” but “fuck it” itself stands in need of analysis, and, besides, his definition got lots of southward thumbery.
Contributor 2 offered two meanings:
A) A phrase that seems to simply state the obvious but actually implies helplessness.
B) A phrase that seems to simply state the obvious but actually means "it will be what it is," as in "it ain't gonna change, so deal with it or don't."
Contributor 3 suggested a definition that seems to match B above:
A cliché, popular within the circles of coaches, business execs, and those of us who just want to say "It's happened. 'I'm going to forget about it. I'm going to move on. There is nothing that can be done about it."
...
"We showed up and gave 100%, and it is what it is."— NASCAR driver Jimmie Johnson, after finishing second in the Nextel Cup championship.
Contributor 4 wanted to vent about assholery. He reminded me of you, B:
A trite, overused and infuriatingly meaningless cliché that is utilized by provincials who think they are adding some deep, meaningful insight during a discussion when all they are offering is senseless, unwarranted repetitiveness to what would otherwise be a far better conversation had they not shown the shallowness of the gene pool they spawned from by using this asininely useless and redundant phrase to begin with.
An interesting conversation is being had, when quite suddenly….
Yeah, many who use IIWII should be slapped upside the head. Much the same, of course, could be said of people who use the word “utilize.”
But, hey, it is what it is. (Thwock!)
Contributor 5 seemed to detect an admonition in IIWII: don’t try to define the indefinable, College Boy:
In a nutshell, it means "this is the way its going right now, and that’s how it is." Kind of a way to say: don’t overthink the situation. A reminder to keep things simple, don’t overanalyze things, or a way to put a definition on something that’s hard to explain.
Friend: "So what's the deal with you and Bobby? I thought you guys were together, but then someone said you broke up, and then somebody else told me you were broken up but 'friends with benefits' So what's the true relationship status?
Girlfriend: it is what it is.
Anaheim, 1896
Well, all of this reminds me of my favorite quotation, attributed to Bishop Butler, which appears at the beginning of G.E. Moore’s famous Principia Ethica, published in 1903:
“Everything is what it is, and not another thing.”
Trivial? Tautologous? Well, no.
Moore is famous for his assertion that moral “goodness” is an indefinable concept. For centuries, philosophers have sought to define “the good,” but those efforts appear not to have succeeded.
Moore offered an argument. Hedonists (to pick one kind of thinker) tell us that, ultimately, only pleasure has value—that pleasure is the good and “pleasant” is the meaning of the word “good.”
But, reasons Moore, if the meaning of “good” is “pleasant,” then the question "Is it good that x is pleasant?" should not be an open question. That is, it should strike us as trivial.
Confused? Well, consider a term whose meaning is clear. Consider “bachelor.” A bachelor, by definition, is an unmarried man (more or less). This statement—that a bachelor is unmarried—seems trivial to us exactly because “unmarried man” is indeed the meaning of “bachelor,” and so, naturally, saying that a bachelor is unmarried strikes us much like saying that an unmarried person is an unmarried person, which is a trivial and obvious thing to say.
Therefore: it is an indication that we have not successfully defined “bachelor” with “X” if asking, “Is a bachelor X?”, strikes us as a significant (an “open”) question.
According to Moore, any attempted definition of “goodness” runs into this difficulty: the statement that goodness is X (where X is an alleged definition of “good”) always strikes us as non-trivial. And so, he concludes, no definition of “good” works. “Good” is indefinable.
Everything is what it is and it is not another thing.
* * * * * IT
We have worked hard on the project, you and I. But we are now finished. Our friends and supporters stand with us at this moment of completion.
At once, we all stand back and behold IT. We—you and I—are not entirely sure that we have succeeded.
“It is what it is,” you say.
After a few seconds of ominous silence, you turn to me: “Do you have anything of significance to add?”
“Yes I do,” I reply. All eyes dart my way. Everyone awaits my words.
Finally, I declare: “There’s no changing it now. We must accept it as it is, whatever its virtues or vices.”
Question: how many assessments have now been offered? One or two?
IT #2
I wake up as always. I stand sleepily over the percolator. I sense something odd about the morning light outside. I wander out the door, looking toward Santiago Peak.
Just then, B drives up. “Wuzzup?” I say.
“Nothing,” he says, as he climbs out of his car. We stand together, staring northward, in silence.
Suddenly, an enormous head rises above the mountain. It fills the sky, as the moon plunging into Earth might do. It is the head of a vital yet aged Italian man.
God’s head.
Soon, the head is immediately above, looking straight down at us. We are stunned and motionless, staring skyward.
“B, Roy. I want to show you two something,” booms God.
Fantastically, we are transported upward. Evidently traveling at many times the speed of light, we are brought to a vast and colorful nebula. We race into its center, and we see and hear and feel things beyond our wildest imaginings. Somehow, we are neither frightened nor stupefied. We are dazzled and moved beyond anything we could ever have dreamed. Our minds are aglow.
Then, suddenly, we are brought to the percolator and the ordinary morning kitchen.
We stand, silent.
After a few seconds, B and I look at each other, wide-eyed. I begin to speak, desperately attempting to describe our experience.
But B’s eyes say no. I stop.
“It is what it is,” he says. “It…is…what…it…is.”
COMMENTS:
alannah said...
Don't forget Exodus 3:14! "I am that I am." 7:19 PM, November 21, 2009
13 Stoploss said...
"Beauty is truth, truth beauty." 8:19 PM, November 21, 2009
Anonymous said...
So God is Popeye? 12:05 PM, November 23, 2009
Anonymous said...
Popeye is "I am _what_ I am." Close, but not God. Not quite. But perhaps this explains the old saying, "Popeyeness is next to Godliness." (I think that's how it goes.) 1:58 PM
Anonymous said...
I'm Popeye the Sailor Man, I'm Popeye the Sailor Man.
I'm strong to the finich Cause I eats me spinach.
I'm Popeye the Sailor Man.
I'm one tough Gazookus Which hates all Palookas
Wot ain't on the up and square.
I biffs 'em and buffs 'em And always out roughs 'em
But none of 'em gets nowhere.
If anyone dares to risk my "Fisk", It's "Boff" an' it's "Wham" un'erstan'?
So keep "Good Be-hav-or" That's your one life saver
With Popeye the Sailor Man.
I'm Popeye the Sailor Man, I'm Popeye the Sailor Man.
I'm strong to the finich Cause I eats me spinach.
I'm Popeye the Sailor Man. 2:27 PM
Anonymous said...
Man, that takes me back to after school, lo these many years ago. 3:04 PM
I’ve done a little quick ‘n’ dirty research on the lawyer Raghu hired to defend plaintiffs in the “prayer” lawsuit: David Llewellyn. He’s seriously right-wing. According to the website for Llewellyn’s law firm,
David Llewellyn is a legal advocate, civil rights lawyer and law professor now practicing in Sacramento, California. … He is a member of the faculty of the Chapman University School of Law [uh-oh], where he has taught Constitutional Law and the First Amendment and currently serves as a law professor and legal counsel with the Center for Constitutional Jurisprudence. He was formerly Dean and Professor of Law at Trinity Law School…. Previous to that he was a founder, President and senior legal counsel for the Western Center for Law and Religious Freedom [WCLRF], a public interest law firm.
Founder of the Western Center, eh? Hmmm. Wikipedia’s article on far, far, far-right religious wacko—and pal of Fuentes—Howard Ahmanson explains that Ahmanson
contributed $62,500 to the [WCLRF], which, among other things, aided the citizens and leaders of the Kern County school district defend their choice to ban One Hundred Years of Solitude, a book by Gabriel García Márquez, for its "profanity" and "vulgarity."
Evidently, the "Western Center" is now known as the Pro-Family Law Center of Abiding Truth Ministries. I Googled that and got the website for the Pro-Family Resource Center of Abiding Truth Ministries, which presents writings by Scott Lively, the “President of Abiding Truth Ministries and lead attorney for ATM's Pro-Family Law Center.”
The Pro-Family Law Center (see) seems obsessed with the EVIL that is homosexuality. PFLC sells such books as:
The Pink Swastika (by Scott Lively and Kevin Abrams)
The Pink Swastika is a thoroughly researched, eminently readable, demolition of the "gay" myth, symbolized by the pink triangle, that the Nazis were anti-homosexual.
Bill Berkowitz (in Buzzflash) called this book, by Lively, a “Holocaust revisionist anti-gay book.” According to Berkowitz, Scott Lively declared “war against the Southern Poverty Law Center for refusing to remove his Abiding Truth Ministries (http://www.abidingtruth.com) from its list of hate groups.”
Clearly, this Scott Lively fella is seriously bad news. Gosh, he's Frogueworthy!
Does that make Llewellyn seriously bad news too?
Well, no.
LLEWELLYN & ANTI-GAY NUTJOBS. I came across an amazing book called As We Sodomize America, by O. R. Adams Jr.
Adams is a nutjob.
Well, at some point Adams refers, positively, to a VCR tape entitled The Gay Agenda, which is narrated (in part) by Llewellyn:
…[It] is an authoritative and comprehensive explanation of the homosexual movement, and homosexual activity. The narrators on the tape are David Llewellyn, President, Western Center for Law and Religious Freedom; Stanley Monteith, M.D., author of "AIDS, The Unnecessary Epidemic;" Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D., a well known specialist in homosexuality, and author of "Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality," and many other publications; John Smid, an ex-homosexual, and Director of Love in Action, an organization which helps homosexuals who want to change to a decent way of life; and John Paulk, an ex-homosexual, and Administrator of Love in Action. Dr. Montieth gave the statistical references on homosexual acts….
Wow. Lawyer Llewellyn, it seems, hangs out with a far-out crowd not dissimilar to Mr. Frogue's "Liberty Lobby" gang.
I’ll keep looking. But it doesn't look good. Gosh, why don't they run down the street and see if Steve's available?
P.S.:
I found some videos featuring Stanley Monteith, co-narrator, along with Llewellyn and others, of "The Gay Agenda." See below. Good grief.
Joseph Nicolosi, another co-narrator, is a major advocate of reparative therapy, which attempts to "cure" people of their homosexual feelings and desires. He's a crank.
Evidently, John Smid headed an organization--Love in Action--dedicated to the notion that homosexuality is a "myth." Right.
Read about the troubled Mr. John Paulk, the remaining narrator, here.
COMMENT:
Anonymous said...
Yikes - it's worse than I thought. Stop scaring us Chunk! 7:42 PM, November 21, 2009
OC Weekly’s Matt Coker has noted our “prayer” lawsuit (here) and has managed to dig up some cool facts! One cool fact concerns the Chancellor, that clever fellow who played a certain video three months ago--you know, the one that ends with that remarkable assertion about Jesus?
According to Matt,
District Chancellor Raghu Mathur, who is also named as a defendant in the suit, has retained David Llewellyn of the Sacramento-based Llewellyn Spann law firm. Llewellyn, who often represents conservative Christian groups, left a message with the Weekly vowing that Westphal v. Wagner will be settled through "constitutional law designated in the courts."
Llewellyn also revealed his defense strategy, saying official government sessions have begun with prayer invocations since the United States was founded and that the public college district simply wants to follow that tradition.
Yeah, but it isn't that simple, L-man:
[T]he Americans United complaint references more than just invocations before public meetings. Saddleback officials are accused of showing a video titled God Bless the USA during a faculty training session this past August.
"The video included religious images and closed with two pictures of military personnel carrying a flag-draped coffin," according to the complaint. "Superimposed on those images was the following text: 'Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you. Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other died for your freedom.'"
Such spectacles subject some members of audiences to "unwanted religious practices," according to Americans United, which adds that attendance at some events where this occurs are mandatory, citing students who are awarded scholarships but must go to a public ceremony or forfeit the financial aid.
This isn't just about prayin'.
COMMENTS:
Anonymous said...
You can't make this stuff up, can you? That video is shameful. 7:36 PM, November 20, 2009
Anonymous said...
It's about time something was done about this. But does the lawsuit not say anything about prayer at Irvine Valley College? 8:34 PM, November 20, 2009
Anonymous said...
Well, the Chancellor's "opening session" in August was at IVC. So there's that. The notorious "Jesus Christ" video was shown there. 9:16 PM, November 20, 2009
13 Stoploss said...
I (still) take offense that Mathur thinks soldiers are willing to die for assholes like himself. btw, do you have video of this invocation? I'm sure there are scores of veterans, possibly hundreds, that would love to see that video. 11:54 PM, November 20, 2009
Anonymous said...
Does this also mean that the District, using taxpayer dollars, will be paying these lawyers to defend these actions? Just what we need on the heels of this week's announcement that the State is projecting another $21B deficit and education funding is again at stake. 1:39 PM, November 21, 2009
Anonymous said...
Yes, it does mean that. The behavior of Wagner, Fuentes, and Mathur seems to have been particularly provocative. And so now they've got a lawsuit on their hands, and it will cost the taxpayer many tens of thousands of dollars at the very least. 5:03 PM, November 21, 2009
Americans United for Separation of Church and State has filed a lawsuit in federal court challenging official prayers during public ceremonies at a Southern California community college.
The lawsuit challenges the South Orange County Community College District’s practice of opening its events with prayer. The District oversees two Southern California community colleges – Saddleback College in Mission Viejo and Irvine Valley College in Irvine; the legal action challenges prayers at Saddleback.
School officials, the legal action asserts, routinely sponsor official invocations at events for students and faculty, including scholarship-award ceremonies, commencement ceremonies and training programs for faculty.
Plaintiffs assert they are subjected to unwanted religious worship at these events, a stance AU backs in its lawsuit. “These community colleges need to stop promoting religion and get back to the business of education,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. “Faculty and students should be able to attend school events without being subjected to official prayer and religious worship.”
AU’s lawsuit notes that students and faculty members have protested the mandatory prayers many times. The student government of Saddleback College has twice passed resolutions opposing the prayer practice, and similar resolutions have been passed by the faculty’s Academic Senate of Saddleback College, the Academic Senate of Irvine Valley College, the statewide Academic Senate for California Community Colleges and the South Orange County Community College District Faculty Association.
School officials ignored the complaints and, in response, actually increased the religious content of these public events.
In August of 2009, Saddleback officials showed a video titled “God Bless the USA” during a faculty training session. The video included religious images and closed with two pictures of military personnel carrying a flag-draped coffin. Superimposed on those images was the following text: “Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you. Jesus Christ and the American G.I. One died for your soul, the other died for your freedom.”
The legal action asserts that these types of activities subject many in the audience to “unwanted religious practices.”
AU points out in legal documents that attendance at some of these events is mandatory. For example, students who are awarded scholarships must attend a public ceremony or forfeit the financial aid.
Plaintiffs are: Karla Westphal, Alannah Rosenberg, Margot Lovett and Claire Cesareo-Silva, all professors at Saddleback College; Roy Bauer, a professor at Irvine Valley College; Ashley Mockett, a former student at Saddleback and two current Saddleback students who have chosen to remain anonymous.
AU’s complaint notes that for years, faculty, students and parents have protested the prayer policy. College officials, the complaint asserts, “responded by expanding the prayer practice, by making the prayers ever more religious and divisive, and by publicly attacking members of minority faiths and nonbelievers for not sharing the District’s preferred faith.”
The case, Westphal v. Wagner, was filed yesterday in U.S. District Court for the Central District of California. AU Assistant Legal Director Richard B. Katskee is overseeing the case, assisted by AU Madison Fellow Jef Klazen as well as Allen Erenbaum and Christopher P. Murphy of Mayer Brown LLP in Los Angeles.
“Prayer and religious worship are intimate matters that must be freely undertaken and never coerced,” Katskee said. “This litigation is designed to remind community college officials of that fact.”
Americans United is a religious liberty watchdog group based in Washington, D.C. Founded in 1947, the organization educates Americans about the importance of church-state separation in safeguarding religious freedom.
COMMENTS:
Anonymous said...
These people have for too long run this district (and this county) as if they and only they know best - it's infuriating and offensive to come to work at a publicly funded institution and be subject to this. 5:37 PM, November 20, 2009
Anonymous said...
help! help! Will someone take note and help us please! this has gone on for tooooo long! 9:26 PM, November 20, 2009
