As you know, several faculty and students—including atheists, agnostics, and believers—are challenging the SOCCCD's embrace of prayers and religious messages during public occasions such as “opening sessions” and commencement ceremonies. It is, we believe, a violation of the principle of separation of Church and State.The 2009 Fall “Chancellor’s opening session” (for video, see end of this post), which occurred in August, is cited in the case for at least two reasons.
First, after trustee John Williams was introduced as one who will offer the invocation, he paused to tell a "Biblical" joke-story:
Before the invocation, I thought I’d tell a little Biblical story. Today’s story is about Jonah. In grade school one day, a little girl spoke to her teacher about Jonah and how he was swallowed by a whale. The teacher said it was physically impossible for a whale to swallow a human because even though they’re a large mammal they have very small throats. The little girl said, “But how can that be? Jonah was swallowed by a whale, and the Bible says so.” Again the teacher said it’s physically impossible for a whale to swallow a human. Undaunted, the little girl said, “When I get to heaven, I will ask Jonah.” To this the teacher replied, “What if Jonah has gone to hell?” The little girl replied, “Then you can ask him.”Second, at the end of the session, the Chancellor played a video that showed numerous patriotic images to the sappy country song, “God Bless the U.S.A.” Toward the end of this video (or slide show), some such words as these are displayed:
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you—Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
Well, all of this came up in my recent depo. Here are some excerpts.
The questioner is the district’s attorney, Mr. V. Naturally, I am answering the questions. Occasionally, I’m referred to as the “witness.”
DID TRUSTEE WILLIAMS WRITE HIS LITTLE JOKE?
Q …Do you know who wrote this joke? Do you know if Trustee Williams actually wrote this joke?
. . .
A I would be very surprised if he could string two sentences together without screwing them up. So, no, I don't think he wrote it.
Q … When did you begin holding that belief?
. . .
A Well, I was joking when I said that, but he, I don't think, is a person I would ever expect to be able to produce this paragraph.
Q Okay. So you understood at the time that Trustee Williams was not the author?
A That is my belief.
. . .
Q When did you hold the belief – when did you form the belief that Trustee Williams was incapable of producing a paragraph such as this?
A I have seen much of his writing. … I remember looking at his writing during the suit of 1998 and he's a very poor writer and he often engages in malapropism during meetings. You know, “don't stay in your ivory castle,” … things like that. And so I have a pretty good idea of what he's capable of.… I would just say that this is so much the kind of joke that is said in those settings [church] and when I combine that fact with the, oh, lack of imagination with this particular fellow, I'm guessing he found this on some Christian site. … Or maybe he heard it at his own church.
. . .
Q Okay. Is there anything that John Williams could say to you that would affect your religious beliefs, Professor?
A Well, I will acknowledge that he is not an authority for me, so I don't know exactly what you're asking.
Q You think John Williams is an idiot?
A Well, only in the loose sense of idiot….
Q So do you believe an idiot could affect your religious views, Professor?
A It's unlikely.
Q Probably would be impossible, right?
Q Okay. Short of that?
A No. … But, you know, the situation is that I'm sitting in this room where suddenly we're all told to stand without any sensitivity to the possibility that there are people who do not wish to invoke the Lord, but nevertheless he does that, and I find that offensive even though it is unlikely that anything he says will change my mind about the issues of religion.
THE “GOD BLESS THE U.S.A.” VIDEO:
Q … Okay, let's go to the video, the “God Bless the U.S.A.” video. … Have you ever heard -- well, you saw the video; right, you were there [for the opening session]?
A I did see it.
Q And what was the song that the video was -- the slideshow was set to?
A I believe it is a song by a well-known country singer. I don't know who that is but I think the song is called “God Bless the U.S.A.”
. . .
Q In fact, you've heard that song at, you know, Republican or Democratic Conventions?
[Yes]
Q Now, and the slideshow was largely patriotic?
A Yes.
Q But then you get to the – your problem is with the last slide?
. . .
THE WITNESS: If I had the opportunity to do a critique of the video, it would not restrict itself to the last slide but with regard to issues of religion and prayer pretty much it was the last slide.
. . .
Q And were you offended by any of the other slides when you saw them?
A I don't know if “offense” is the right word. I don't – I feel uncomfortable with the kind of sappy patriotic display involved in that kind of video.
Q Let me ask you this: Would you be objecting to this slideshow in this case if it wasn't for the final slide in this presentation?
A Probably not. … Except to say they have very bad taste in music.
. . .
Q Do you know how the district got a copy of the “God Bless the U.S.A.” slideshow?
A I have no idea.
Q Do you know who the author of the slideshow was, who actually prepared the slides?
A I do not.
Q Do you know who the speaker of the slideshow – who do you view the speaker to be of the slideshow?
A Do slideshows have speakers?
Q That's my question, do you view the district itself to be the speaker or one of my clients?
. . .
THE “OOPS” THEORY:[The district’s attorney begins to push the idea that the video had not been previewed, and so the “Jesus” message was inadvertent.]
A I'm aware that these opening sessions are taken very, very seriously by the chancellor and some members of the board and that they are usually very careful about how they choreograph it and what they do in it. So my guess is they were involved in – at least one or two trustees and the chancellor were involved in choosing the elements, including the video.
Q Do you – have you ever been involved in the planning of a chancellor's opening session?
A No.
Q Have you ever attended meetings where a chancellor's opening session was planned?
A Never been invited.
. . .
Q Do you know if any of my clients watched the slideshow before it was played? … Do you have any factual basis to say “yes, I know that this person watched it before it was played”?
. . .
A I don't – I don't know that. I do know that they are very careful usually about what they present and so it would surprise me if they hadn't viewed it.
Q Do you know if – let's leave Chancellor Mathur aside, do you know if any of the other defendants in this case besides Chancellor Mathur, had seen even a second of the slideshow before it was played? …
You don't know how my clients got a copy of the slideshow?
A I do not.
Q Okay. Any basis, in fact, to say they got it – someone from the community, Orange County community sent it to a whole bunch of people including Chancellor Mathur on the Fourth of July?
A I did not know that.
Q Okay. And do you know if the e-mail that was sent to Chancellor Mathur and 25 other people said "A fitting video for the Fourth of July"?
. . .
THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any of these facts.
. . .
Q …Do you know what day Fourth of July was in 2009? Do you know if it fell on a workday or on a weekend?
A I don't recall.
. . .
A No, I don't know that. I know that he's historically, obviously, very very careful about what he presents during these opening sessions and, of course, it's possible that he slipped up once.
Q All right. Do you know what religion Raghu Mathur is?
A I – I think he is – I'm sure he is religious. I couldn't tell you what religion it is.
Q Do you know if he's Hindu?
A I don't know that.
Q Do you know if – do you know if Raghu Mathur believes that Jesus Christ died for his soul or anybody else's soul?
A I don't – I really don't know. I mean, I have some factoids available to me about his religiousness but they don't paint a very clear picture. I know he is religious but I couldn't tell you anything beyond that.
Q Okay. But my question is do you believe that Chancellor Mathur believed that Jesus Christ died for his soul or anybody else's?
. . .
THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
. . .
BAUER’S CASE AGAINST THE “OOPS” THEORY
Q Were you ever informed that the showing of that slide, the final slide of the “God Bless the U.S.A.” presentation was unintentional?
A I have heard the claim made, but at the board meeting immediately after the August opening session there was reference made to the video. And as I recall it was discussed and praised, and there was an opportunity to explain if it was a mistake and no one took [that opportunity]. All of the board members were there, Raghu was there, and as I recall people expressed the idea that it was very good opening session, and they had only praise.
And when they made those comments they had already heard from, I think, Karla Westphal and possibly Margot who had objected to that video. That's right, that's what happened. They had already objected to the video and that “Jesus” line in particular and after that when the board discussed the opening session, they had an opportunity to explain any error that might have been made. They did not say anything about failing to preview the video. They didn't say they made a mistake. They heaped praise on the session and that was it. So at that point I believed that they were endorsing that video.
Q And they didn't do anything else…after the board meeting?
A Yes, at some point after that board meeting. mysteriously, we hear about a mistake, an honest mistake made. Well, the problem with that is they were at a board meeting in which explicitly Karla and Margot, who are very articulate people, explained the objection to that very video and that very slide. And if ever there was a time to say “sorry we screwed up,” it was just a few minutes later when the board did its reports and Mathur does his report. And they did bring up the opening session, but all they had to say was praise. If there had been a mistake, why didn't they say it then?
So, yes, I did hear about a claim that it was some kind of honest mistake. It does not in my mind fit with the fact they had an opportunity to explain their mistake and, if ever there was an opportunity, that was it and they did not take it. On the contrary they only praised the opening session.
Q Do you know how resolutions are passed by the Board of Trustees?
A I think so. … I think that they have to be agendized.
. . .
Q In fact, … a resolution was agendized [as it turns out, for a subsequent board meeting] and passed concerning that video?
A Yeah.
Q Do you still want an apology or is the resolution not good enough?
[Note: I don’t recall ever asking for an apology. It is possible that, at the aforementioned board meeting, Karla or Margot had demanded an apology.]
. . .
THE WITNESS: I honestly don't remember when the resolution was. My memory was it was the next meeting or the meeting after, but, you know, it would be typical of me to conflate these. [No, my memory was correct.] But I do remember that the meeting right after that opening session they had just heard very clear, very strong objections to that video during the opening session and I believe they objected to Williams' comments too. … They had just heard these objections, and if you have something to say in response like, well, “we can understand your – that you're upset but we are here to assure you that it was only an honest mistake,” that's when you would say it, but they did not say it….
. . .
…So, you know, in my memory it was a later date that, you know, “we need to come up with an excuse for what happened” and then there's this claim that it was an honest mistake.
Q Do you know when the wheels got rolling on generating a resolution addressing that video?
A I have no idea.
. . . I have every reason to believe that what happened is they showed this video, then very soon after, they had a board meeting where vociferous objections were made to what happened during the opening session. And a few minutes after that, the board gave its reports and Mathur gave his report and they did comment on the opening session. And they said nothing about a mistake and seemed to be uninterested in saying anything but positive things [about the opening session]. And you can watch the video yourself and see for yourself. And at that point I had absolutely no reason to think that these people had made a mistake. On the contrary, they must have thought – they felt pretty good about how it went and what happened.
. . .
Now, I know how the situation works. It probably became clear to them thereafter that they were in trouble now, because if they're going to come up with some kind of excuse after-the-fact it's not going to look too good and that's exactly what happened.
. . .
Q Do you know what religion Marcia Milchiker is?
A I do.
Q What is she?
A I believe she's Jewish.
Q How about Trustee Lang?
A I believe he's Jewish.
Q You believe that Trustees Lang and Milchiker believe that Jesus Christ died for anybody's souls?
A I'm confident that they do not believe that.
. . .
Q …When you saw the “God Bless the U.S.A.” video did you for a second believe that Jesus Christ died for your soul?
A That's a very very odd picture. You're asking me if I had this moment of belief that Jesus Christ died for my soul?
Q Yes.
A I did not.
To see video of the Chancellor’s Opening Session (August 2009), click here.
Colleen Callahan for Public AdministratorWilliams’ “Jonah” story/invocation: go to 07:20. (video)The “God Bless the U.S.A” video: go to 2:47:20. (video)The message about Jesus Christ: go to 2:50:10. (video)Don, having just seen the video, betrays no indication that anything is amiss with the video: 2:50:31. (video)
2 comments:
Why are they asking about Marcia and Dave?
I suppose the idea is that the two Jews on the board are not likely to have endorsed the showing of a "Jesus saves" video. Both Dave and Marcia are named in the suit as members of the board.
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